I have a crazy new idea for a book series. I’m not talking about the story or characters or anything (although they will be epic!). I’m talking about the structure of the series itself.
Here’s my idea. Ready?
So I was watching The Avengers a while back, and I thought the concept of having a handful of origin stories followed by an ensemble film, followed by more individual hero stories, followed by another ensemble film, etc. etc., was a really cool idea. And then I thought, “Has this been done with books? Could it be done with books? Why is cheesy popcorn so delicious, and yet none of my local theaters sells it?”
Existential popcorn question aside, I took this idea and have been running with it. What I currently have planned (everything is still in the outlining stage at this point), is a series of books which will be comprised of four “origin” stories, followed by an “ensemble” story, and then potentially splitting back off again to the individual characters for more adventures.
Here’s a terrible line-drawing of vaguely how the series would work:
Now, when I suggested this idea to the gentleman who critiqued Imminent Danger a few weeks ago, he said that the idea would never work. According to him, this sort of series has never been attempted because it just plain won’t sell. He suggested that instead I fit those four “origin” stories into one novel, and have the climax of that novel be whatever climax I was planning to use in the first ensemble story.
I think part of the reason it could actually work really well is because I would be self-publishing it. Meaning I could price the origin stories very low (or some of them, at least), in order to garner attention and gain fans. Or have free giveaways, set one of the origin stories permanently free, bundle them all up in an anthology once they’ve all been released, etc. etc. I’m more focused on writing them than marketing them at the moment, but still … important things to think about!
So … what’s everyone’s thoughts on this? Do you think a book series modeled in the “Avengers ensemble” style could possibly work? I’m hoping some of you will say “yes”, because I think it’s a really fun idea! But if you think it’s doomed to failure, don’t hesitate to tell me why. All information is good information!
Update: I thought you guys might be amused to know that the working title for this project is “SWAG RAVEN” — as in, a raven with lots of swag.
Unrelated media of the day:
Michelle Proulx - Author 
In “Sailor On The Seas Of Fate” Michael Moorcock brought together several of his characters together for one adventure. Although that is usually considered part of the “Stormbringer” series, it features three or four other characters who have their own series.
It seems to me that at least one author has done something similar, but I can’t come up with the particulars. (Kurt Vonnegut, I know, often used the heroes of one book as minor characters in another one, but that’s not quite the same thing.)
In comic books, of course, team-ups and crossovers are frequent.
I think it’s a fabulous idea, myself. The different series should clearly be part of the same world from the onset, and it would probably be easiest if they were all third person.
Ah, see, I knew someone must have done it at some point! Thanks for proving me right 🙂 I’ll have to check out those books, if only to see how they managed to get the assorted books to flow together.
I love that you brought up comic books, because … well, The Avengers is, after all, based on comic books 🙂 And I’ve read enough comic books to appreciate a good team-up story. Young Justice springs to mind. I should probably stop talking about comics now before anyone figures out what a massive nerd I am, lol.
Anyhoo, yay that you like it! I’m planning out the stories right now with my brother, and we’re having lots of fun weaving the assorted stories together to create a cohesive world. And definitely yes to the third person suggestion. I was planning on that anyway — I know some people are experimenting with first-person fantasy, but … I don’t know, I guess I just like the classics 😀
I just remembered that in “Sailor On The Seas Of Fate” the characters were all brought out of their respective worlds–they met on a ship that had the ability to sail between dimensions, basically.
As I recall, there were also some timeline issues–when Elric and Hawkmoon met, I believe that it was the first time for Elric, but Hawkmoon remembered meeting Elric at a time that was earlier on his timeline, but later on Elric’s. (Which is how Elric knew that he, at least, would survive the mission.)
China Mielville, in his New Corubuzon books reuses a lot of characters– the rebel leader Toro in “Iron Council” is a prisoner that is seen being remade in “Perdido Street Station”, and one of the main characters in “The Scar” is fleeing the city because of the events of “Perdido Street Station”.
The comic caper novelist Donald Westlake also has a fair amount of cameo crossovers–I can think of a scene in “A Travesty”, for example, where the main character sees one of the characters from “Dancing Aztecs” pushing a harp down the street, and in his Dortmunder series there is a large crew of minor characters who show up in several books.
And now that I’m thinking about, William Gibson’s “Sprawl” series, particularly the first three, “Nueromancer”, “Count Zero”, and “Mona Lisa Overdrive” do a lot of that. “Count Zero” is basically your idea on a smaller scale, the book goes back and forth between three groups of characters, who eventually all meet up and pool their resources at the end of the book.
I’ll stop now. The point is that you are right and Mr. Smarty Pants English Teacher Guy is wrong.
Ohhh that’s fun! So they’re not team-up / cross-overs so much as it’s the author having fun and inserting familiar characters into new stories. I wonder if I could have one of my aliens show up in the fantasy series without anyone getting too upset about it … 😀
Well, you could have six armed lizard men as a monster race in a fantasy world, and those who had read Eris’s story would be in on the joke.
Ooooh I like it! Sadly this new fantasy world doesn’t call for lizard people, but I’m sure I could slip in a reference to the Ssrisk somewhere … 😀
Your critique-er has a point, and at the same time he doesn’t. Yes, it could work if you wove everything together into one book (The Lord of the Rings follows the stories of the characters across three main branches: They have something of origin stories, they got together, they go on their individual paths, and then they regroup. Then, technically, they split up again, but the main novels end there.
My favorite author, R.A. Salvatore, has mainly centered around Drizzt. But another character, Wulfgar, who traveled with Drizzt a lot also had a couple of his own books. And Salvatore’s books always flash between the different characters.
I’ve read a few of the Drizzt books — I didn’t know Wulfgar had his own books! Something to look into 🙂
The thing with weaving everything together into one book is that the origin story of each character is so rich that sticking everything into one book would be … well, gigantic, lol. I’ll have to give it some thought, though. Thanks 🙂
Yeah, Wulfgar ends up running off and sulking on his own for a while in Spine of the World, so a major portion of the book is dedicated to him and his attempt to find himself.
Very cool! His voice reminds of … dang, I don’t remember, whoever sang Rock Me Amadeus. Possibly Falco?
I like it!
I think a few authors have done cross-over stories where one character from a series appears in another characters books like a cameo. Mark Billingham (UK Crime writer) has done it as has Michael Marshall (UK Thriller writer) Not to the extent you’re talking about but the same principle.
Having the books targeted from a pricing point of view to drum-up interest in the ensemble is a great marketing plan. Ignore the dude and go for it. 🙂
I like the idea but you would have to make sure every novel and every character was a really strong one. That’s the problem I struggle with in some books where the characters go back and forth. Take the Song of Ice and Fire series, for example. There’s some character chapters that I am completely obsessed with while there’s others that I’m kind of “meh” about.
But I think if this was done right, it would be a very cool series. You could also publish the books in smaller form (think – Stephen King with Green Mile) with the one character books being shorter than the big altogether ensemble.
Hmm. I like this idea though! I hope you pursue it 🙂
Oh, definitely, the individual character stories would need to stand on their own as interesting and engaging books. And I like your idea of having the character books being shorter than the ensemble! Sort of like in the 60-70k word range, rather than 120-150k for the ensemble.
Michelle…if successful innovators had worried about what other thought, they would have never been successful. Don’t worry about others; do what your heart and guts tell you and if it doesn’t work out, so what, You will probably have fun doing it and it’s a learning experience for next time. And if you find out it’s already been done, who cares. You put your spin on it. I spend half my life worring about what others would think. Not until I abandoned that way of thinking was I able to write as I do today…and I don’t care if anyone likes it or not; I’m enjoying myself. That being said, go for it!
Woo! I love your enthusiasm!!! I will definitely go for it 🙂 Granted, writing that many books will probably take me a few years … so let’s say I will go for it in a slow yet determined manner 🙂
I think it’s an awesome idea. Just because something hasn’t been done successfully before doesn’t mean it cannot or should not be done.
I’ve never been a big fan or writers (or any artist for that matter) taking on a creative endeavor based largely on whether or it may be profitable or not. I think if you find the idea compelling and it’s something you want to do that should be enough. I have a very strong belief that if you write from your heart and be true to your ideas that readers will come.
Well, that’s the dream 😀 I’ve actually had this story kicking around in my head for a while now (going on three years, I think). I started off writing it for Nanowrimo, but didn’t like how it turned out, so I scrapped it, started re-working it, and then Avengers came out and I was like EUREKA!!!
See! If it’s been floating around in your head that long, you know it’s important. You have to do it!
Then I will!!! 😀
Self-publishing would be the key to making this work. The only series that I can think comes close to something of this scale and level of epic is ‘The Harpers’ series for Forgotten Realms. I think it was 16 books with different heroes in each one with a few cameos. The final book had all of the central characters in a last adventure.
I say go for it.
Hmmm … I will definitely need to check that out. Despite my professed love for fantasy, I seem to have read an apallingly few number of fantasy stories. Ack!
I’m using it as a basis for one of my series with a new hero in every book and the last book is a big threat where everyone is needed. Going for superhero on that one.
I don’t know if The Harpers are still in print. I think they’re from the 80’s and 90’s. One good thing about it was that you didn’t have to read all of them. If you had a few favorite characters, you could simply get those books and read the end without much of a problem.
That’s definitely a bonus. I remember picking up Justice League comic books, and being like, “Well, I don’t know who half these people are, but I LOVE the other half that I do know, so it’s all good!” And hey, if the superhero model works for movies and comics, why shouldn’t it work for books too? 😀
Comics are odd when it comes to teams. You can figure out enough about a character within a few issues to stick with them. Yet, at least in the 80’s and 90’s, they were designed to make you go hunting for older comics. Some of them even had notes telling you which issue a mentioned event happened in.
Oh man, I remember when I fell in love with the Young Justice series (Robin, Wondergirl, Superboy, etc.), and at one point there was a gaping hole in the storyline, and the comic told me to go buy like four other comic books to fill in the gap. Fun idea in theory to boost sales of the other titles, but I was reading these books a couple of years after they’d come out, and finding the gap-fill comics was waaaaay too time-consuming, lol. Luckily the last part of that mini-arc was in the Young Justice comic, so I ended up just guessing what happened based on the first and last parts of the mini-arc and then moved on 😀
I think when they started it, they didn’t think that far ahead. That’s why there were so many comic conventions and selling areas around. I remember it took me over 2 years to collect of the Batman: Knightfall comics. I didn’t even get them in order.
I bought the bulk of Young Justice off eBay — it was something like episodes 1-7, 8, 11, 13-15, etc. So I spent the next few years trolling comic shops and eBay trying to find all the ones in the middle. I actually finished my collection last Christmas! Huzzah! Nine years after I first started collecting, lol …
I still have some series and storylines that I never finished. Lost the small book that listed them too. I got a lot of first appearance comics though and most of those I stumbled onto.
Sounds like a lot of work
Yeah, it’s kind of daunting, lol. I’ve got my brother in on the project, so hopefully that will make my life a little easier. But he starts school again in the fall, so … well, check back in a year and see if I’m still sane then, lol.
Romance authors do this all the time. 🙂 I also believe Jo Konrath has done this having spin off characters galore from his original stor(ies). It has been done and quite successfully. Go for it. Why worry about if it’s been done, it will be your own slant on it. Won’t know until you put it out there!
Ah, now that you mention it, I do recall a few romance series that did that! I think I read a series once that started off with an English lord, and then the next book was about his brother, and then about his best friend, and so on. Excellent point! And I’m not so much worried about it having been done before — I was more wondering if it had been done in order to gauge if such a thing was possible 🙂 And since it seems to be very possible indeed, full steam ahead!
When I read Misha’s comment about Moorcock bringing characters from “their respective worlds” it reminded me of a series I read in the 70s. Jack Chalker wrote 12 books in his Well World series and another 7 that featured the same Well World. The first book I recall was Midnight at the Well of Souls. These were pure fantasy with a good measure of humor, and great fun to read. I remember being disappointed when I couldn’t find more of them—don’t know why I haven’t re-read them since, but I will now (if I can find them) that I realize what I’ve missed! Good luck to you, Michelle! If you have a comic book foundation, I’m sure you know the value of adding humor to make your characters real—it sure makes a book a lot more fun…both in the writing and in the reading.
I think the best books are the ones that are a perfect mix of action, adventure, drama, romance, and comedy 🙂 I’m planning this series with lots of action scenes and drama and whatnot, but I have a feeling the humor is going to work its way into my writing whether I want it to or not!
I just asked Google for a chronological list of Chalker’s books—O.M.G. I’d forgotten so many of them! Not just the Well World, but the Changewinds, the Dancing Gods…and on and on. Here’s the URL if you’d like to know more http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?272
Ahh, so many fantasy books to read, so little time! I checked out the link … um, they look amazing. Time to see if the library has a copy, and time to request it if they don’t!
Doooooooo it! Methinks your English Teacher may not be quite as clever as he thinks he is. 😉
Lol. Well, according to the other commenters, this type of series has been done before with moderate success, so … full speed ahead, I say!
Personally, I don’t know who this gentleman is, but I think what he said is the stupidest advice I’ve heard in recent memory. A novel composed of origin stories is likely to be confusing and misleading, and having it end with the proposed ending of the ensemble story? Talk about disjointed! You’re idea is as sound as it is timely. People love a story where they have become emotionally invested in several different characters and then get to see them interact. And they would feel obliged to read the various origin stories in order to get apprised of the ensemble too. And above all, ensemble stories are a chance to get into some crazy action and storytelling. The Avengers proved that! So go to town and, if I may be so bold, discard this gentleman adviser who’s thoughts seem inane and useless to me!
I think he basically meant scrap the “4 origins plus ensemble” and shorten/conglomerate it into a single book. Have you read The Warded Man? Something like that. But his outright dismissal of the idea did make me wonder if perhaps he and I don’t see eye to eye on the current state of books and readers today 🙂
And see, that’s what I thought! One of my favourite series (Xanth, by Piers Anthony) takes on basically a new cast every book — but the characters are all linked together, and constantly make appearances in each others books, so you really feel like you’re immersed in the world 😀 The only downside to this plan is that it’s going to take FOREVER to write all these books I’m planning, lol.
=D I think any idea of yours is wonderful, dear. ❤ I'm actually doing what The Gentleman suggested with my own book, the set-aside-for-the-moment MERCENARY. (Kind of. The first 'Book' of the novel is all of them doing separate things, that lead to their all coming together, and then the second and third 'books' in the novel are what they do together.)
Either way, just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it wouldn't work! Like you said, this is based off of a pretty solid franchise, and hey–nobody got famous by doing what everyone else was doing. (Okay, not precisely true, but SOMEONE needs to push the envelope, right?)
GO FOR IT. I'd read it. 🙂
Huzzah! I’ll put you down for one super double extra deluxe box set of the series with color maps and author commentary. You can send me a check for $400 at your earliest convenience.
Hehehe. Moving on. Oooh, based on the title “Mercenary” alone, I would totally read that. Have you read The Warded Man? That’s a really great example of a book in which three characters live separate lives, and then all come together for the final showdown. Plus, it’s just a really cool book all around.
And according to the other comments, apparently this sort of thing has actually been done before (although perhaps not in the exact manner I’m planning). So … fingers crossed! I’ve managed to convince my brother to “co-author” with me, which eases the writing process somewhat — his main function is to suggest awesome ideas, and then listen to my awesome ideas and calmly explain why they make no sense. As you can imagine, the brainstorming process is a bit slow-going 😀
LOL. Well, it will take me about as long to make $400 as it will take you to finish the series and MAKE a super-awesome box set, so yeah, that should work out quite nicely! #BrokeLikeAJoke #PovertyIsn’tFunny
I’ve never read that, but I will add it to the list! 🙂 If only because you recommended it, ha ha. Yeah, Mercenary was what I was vaguely working on when I started my blog those many moons ago, before I got the Life of Gaia brainstorm and ran off with that. I’ve been missing my Merc characters, though, so who knows!
Also, I totally laughed out loud at the idea of you and your brother ‘teaming up’ to write anything. xD I feel like the end result will either be creative genius, or a murder-suicide sort of deal. Only time will tell…
Haha yeah, it’s been interesting so far. Mostly we go on long walks and chat about nothing in particular until one of us brings up something related to Swag Raven (our working title for the series). I’ll be like “Blah blah blah, ice cream is delicious, blah blah blah”, and then Jesse will go, “So I’ve been thinking about Saram’s mother. I think we shouldn’t kill her after all.” And then I will politely say, “Why do you think that, Jesse?”, and he explains, and then I inform him that he’s totally wrong and that the mother needs to die because DRAMA, and then he pats me on the head and says, “Silly Shelli.” And then I swat away his hand and we drink delicious frosted beverages.
xDD I find that utterly unbelievable, if only because I know that you’re unable to drink pretty much anything, so that ending is totally ridiculous. You had me up till then, though. ;P Also, if it makes you feel any better, I totally would have said BECAUSE DRAMA too. I mean, is there a better reason??
I’ve actually recently been drinking iced cappucinos, of all things, and it hasn’t been too bad at all. My suspicion is that it’s because I’m drinking the beverage whilst walking, and the good feels of the walking outweigh the bad feels of the drink. Call me crazy. Go on, do it!
xD If I were to call you crazy, I don’t think that THIS is what I would be referring to… x)
Darling, it’s already been done: where do you think the movies got their ideas? From comic books.
While comic books are not novels, all of the comic book characters were well-established with many, many adventures under their belts before they started assembling into the Avengers and Justice League, etc. Not different from the novel series that you’ve proposed at all.
Which means of course it could work. And, again, we’re into nerd-like territory here–things that fantasy and sci-fi people like. (Crossovers are beloved.)
My husband likes Robert B. Parker novels, and the late-Parker wrote two separate series: Jesse Stone and Spencer. They were set at the same time and not too far apart geographically. Minor (but regular) characters occasionally crossed over, and my husband always liked it when that happened, because they were characters you already knew, and, I think, there was the curiosity as to how much of the two series would cross.
Personally, I think Harry Turtledove is the master of having multiple storylines going on at once (meaning in one book) and having characters cross back and forth over each others’ paths; you never know who might bump into whom. But I think different origin stories, following by one crossover novel would be easier to write.
I’ve actually had vague thoughts about a series where the main character dies at the end of every book, but he gets reincarnated into a different time, so you follow the same character throughout time, but in different situations. And things that happen in a previous life can have an effect on the present life.
I came up with it after listening to my husband talk about an old series he liked, “Kafka the Eternal Mercenary,” (the main character can’t die, and you follow him throughout the centuries) and listening to an old song from the 80’s called “The Highwayman” by Kris Kristofferson, Waylon Jennings, Johnny Cash, and Willie Nelson. “The Cloud Atlas” does something very similar, but with several characters and past lives going all at once.
I’m not sure how well it would work–I mean, it wouldn’t take you long before you figure out that the MC dies at the end of every book, so, to keep it interesting, I think you’d really have to make the audience guess about how previous lives are going to come into play and what might happen in this life to affect the next one. And you’d need strong secondary characters that keep playing in and out of the MC’s lives, so you never know who might show up (again, keeping them guessing about who’s going to crossover).
Compared to that, I think your idea sounds much easier to write and has a much better chance of success.
I did actually partially get the idea from comic books! I just wasn’t sure if it had been done in a BOOK book, not a comic book. But clearly it has 😀 I think the thing with comic books is they’re a much faster paced medium — for example, someone might be more willing to invest 10 minutes to read a comic about a new character, whereas they’d have to invest 10 hours to read about a new character in a book. Still, I say full steam ahead 😀
Um, your main character reincarnation story sounds awesome! I see your problem with the ending getting a bit predictable … hmm. What if the character’s ongoing goal is to STOP being reincarnated — I don’t know why he’d want that, that’s up to you to figure out, lol — so then even though we know he’s going to die, we have this nagging thought at the back of our minds of “Maybe this time it doesn’t work. Maybe this time he stays dead.” Like … the love of his life died, and he wants to rest eternally with her or something, but he can’t because he keeps getting reincarnated due to his greater destiny. Or something to that effect 🙂
I know this wasn’t quite what you had in mind but doesn’t C.S. Lewis’ Narnia Books work a bit like that & the characters all come together in The Last Battle at the end (apart from Susan who was now too interested in make up and clothes by that time!!)…I think in the end the only way you ca tell if it will work is by doing it. You may change the plan several times before you finish but hey! what a project
Ah, good point! I hadn’t even thought of Narnia. But yes, definitely — not quite the same, but definite re-use of characters and assorted minor characters popping up all the time. I really enjoyed that series — well, the first few books, anyway. The last couple got a bit weird for me, lol.
Yeah, I think you’re right — I’ll just plow ahead with the plan, put it out there, and see what happens 🙂
This sounds like such a cool idea, and I’d love to read this. I have a few questions like how long would each origin story (on estimate) would be. Usual stuff. I have one suggestion, though, if you’re taking ’em. If you haven’t had this idea already, I’d suggest you finish writing all of the origin stories at once and publish them within the same period of time. Then you can concentrate on the big ensemble adventure.
I’m looking forward to seeing this come to fruition, and I hope I get to see the results soon. : )
I think the origin stories would probably be on the shorter side, book-wise. Like, 60k-70k, probably. They’re supposed to be an introduction to the world and the characters, after all, and while they would stand on their own as stories, they don’t need to be epic fantasy length.
And I definitely like your idea of writing them all and publishing them close together. I was originally thinking of releasing them three months apart, so they’re released over the course of a year … does that sound like a good idea? I figure that gives people enough time to read each installment before the next one comes out.
Ignore the man. It could work but I think don’t tell anyone about it. (Too late!) Release the first 4 origin stories as standalones, then heavily promote the ensemble as a follow up to all 4 origin stories! Of course proving a link on where to buy them. By then everyone will be eagerly anticipating the next lot of origins. It’s a bit like the cross-overs Stephen King is so fond of.
I actually like the idea. It’s another way to create an epic story series. Except it’s not a series because the origins play out in parallel with each other, I guess.
Yeah, exactly — the idea with the origin stories is that they can be read in any order — and you don’t have to read any of them to understand the ensemble story. I mean, chronologically there’s an order to the origin stories, but you don’t have to read them in a specific order by any stretch of the imagination.
Ah, I didn’t know Stephen King was a big cross-over fan! That’s probably because horror is scary and therefore I don’t read it, lol. Actually, that’s a lie — I once read a particularly chilling book called Carrion Comfort. It was about mind vampires, and it was terrifying. Yeek.
Even better! His cross-overs are usualy subtle. Just a character making a cameo appearance or something. Sometimes they’re not so subtle and are actually part of the plot. his time traveller one (JFK’s death date – 23-11-63?) had a big reference to IT.
Carrion Comfort. Hmm. must look that one up. 😉
That’s a good idea. Lots of other writers have used it too (the only one I can think of right now is Rick Riordan in the Heroes of Olympus 🙂 ). I’m sure that as long as you pull it off smoothly, it’ll be great!
Awww man, now I have to figure out how to pull it off smoothly, lol. Maybe I should smear it with butter …
Not sure if this is quite on point, but one of my works in progress is a collection of short stories about a handful of characters. The original idea is that those short stories would intertwine with each other to make a larger story. I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to do accomplish that feat, but I don’t see why your idea, if I understand it, couldn’t work.
Your story reminds me of that movie that came out a while ago … the one about six people who … do something … lol, okay, I didn’t actually watch it, but the idea was that they were all interconnected with whatever the main event was, and that we were seeing how everything unfolded from each of their perspectives.
And that’s always been my problem with short stories — that I’m introduced to a character I really like, and then the story is over and I never see them again. Whereas with your short story collection, it seems like I might get to see them again after all? 🙂
It sounds like a lot of work, but if anyone can conquer this task, it’s you! Good luck! BTW, I love cheesy popcorn too! It’s so much better than butter. 🙂
RIGHT??? 😀 At the Cineplex theatres in Ontario they have little white cheddar flavour packets you can put on the popcorn yourself, but it’s really not the same as popcorn that’s had cheesey goodness deliberately baked into it. Oh, and thanks for the luck 😀
It sounds like a lot of work but if you do it, Good luck to ya. Forget old grumpy guy.
Hahahaha. Well, I’ll give it a shot and let you know how it goes 😀
Remember that the Team-ups were devised to bring new life into a long-running series of adventures by (minimum) two or more already-established characters. To do the same, you’d have to either create perhaps four characters that you could ‘team up’ in the future, or use the one team you’ve already begun with – Eris, Varrin and Miguri and create two or three more teams – each with their own Trilogy. THEN team them up to defeat the biggest menace the galaxy has ever faced. It’s so HUGE (like how I emphasised that?) that even the Rakorsans and the Ssrisk are running scared.
Something like that would take time, but you’re young (younger than me, anyway) and crazy enough to try it. 🙂
IMHO…